V 14 N. 77 When Old Runners Start Jawing, Memories Fade, Times Improve

 A few days ago I put out a posting on using artificial intelligence.  Today we're going back to real intelligence compounded a bit by fading memories.  

The  Principal Protagonists:

Bruce Kritzler:  of Jacksonville, FL formerly an Ohioan from the Findlay area, coached at Louisiana Monroe, and NC Wilmington among other places.  The most total track nut I know.

Bob Roncker:  Cincinnati, OH, founder of the Bob Roncker's Running Spot stores he operated for thirty years in multiple locations in the Cincinnati area.  Bob and I go back to about 1960 when he ran at Cincinnati Elder HS and I ran at Dayton Belmont.  He thumped me in the state cross country meet, I think finishing second or third to Warren Hand of Dayton Roosevelt, then I got second in the state mile the next spring while he was a bit further back.  We ended up coaching against each other in 1990 when he was at Xavier (OH) and I was at Wittenberg U.(OH) and later at U. of Dayton.  

Bill Schnier:  A Dayton, OH native and retired U. of Cincinnati Head Coach for over thirty years.  We've known each other from before those days.  We ran together on the Kettering Striders Track Club in Dayton in the 1970's.  Bill quit baseball  at Capital University in Columbus, OH when he saw the track guys were keeping a lot warmer running in their sweats on a cold Spring day.  He shifted gears and became a good half miler and a great friend.  

    Bill and Kathy Schnier                            Bob Roncker

                                                      Bruce Kritzler        George Brose

                                                           at indoor meet in Baton Rouge

Dec. 26, 2024

I received an email from  Bruce Kritzler in Florida via Bill Schnier and  Bob Roncker in Cincinnati talking about  the 1974 Charleston, (West Virginia) Distance Run,  a challenging 15 miler that took runners straight up a mountain along a divided highway, then back into town on a winding, descending two lane road before finishing on the flats.   Bruce said he did not run that race due to a metatarsal (big word) stress fracture.  That's like in your foot for the uninitiated.   Bill and Bob both finished that race only a few places separated.  Bob sent along a race results page from some publication and another article about another 15 miler in Reader, WV back in 1961 in which two runners died.  Both men were very young, college age.  With so few marathons in those days, this was a terrible statistic.     Anyway I continue with that correspondence as it occurred between us and  in a later post more clippings about the Charleston race when I ran it in 1976.       This conversation will also lead into your opportunity to get in on Bob's re-issuing of copies of an old running newsletter Running Spotlight from the Cincinnati area that he started back in the 1980's and went on for 30 years.  You can ask to be put on the mailing list by contacting Bob at bobroncker@gmail.com .   Cincinnati was a real hotbed of road racing in the 70's and 80's up to present day, but even before then it goes way back and I believe the Thanksgiving day race there is the longest continuously operating race west of the Alleghenies.    George Brose

Here's how things got started two days ago.  This cryptic message came in from Bill, it refers to the Charleston WV 15 Mile Run:

From Bill,

   This is really fascinating.  I only ran Charleston once and thought it was 1972, but I guess it was 1974, but I was really looking forward to running in West Virginia where I had lived in Lewisburg my first 7-1/2 years.  I went down with Steve Price, Phil Scott, and Mark Shillito and we had an extremely humorous time.  We attended the first induction of the National T&F Hall of Fame, a very interesting event.  This was a 15-miler, the longest I had run or ever did run although I did run three half-marathons, my best being 1:13.27 in Canton.  Since I was a flat and downhill runner and since I also went out too fast, I was about 50th at the mile mark just ahead of Duane Gaston ( a very good runner from the Kettering Striders), but faded dramatically as we went up that steep hill.  Toward the top I wondered if anyone was still behind me so I looked, only to find there were thousands. (Bill, I think there were 1000 tops in the race).  Going downhill nobody passed me and I passed Jeff Galloway who had dropped out.  On the flat streets of downtown Charleston I pretty much maintained my position but realized for the first time in my life that I didn't especially care if I beat guys around me because I was just trying to finish.  I was a kicker so I enjoyed passing guys on the football field of Laidley Field, only to be passed by an older guy which really surprised me.  His name was Henryk Kupczyk, 41, from Nashville and I found out later on that he had been on the Hungarian Olympic team and his brother had been on that same team in 1972, so I didn't feel as bad.  I believe he ran the 1,500 and his younger brother ran the 800 which I learned on the bus after the race.  Other than being overly challenged by that hilly course and the 15-mile distance which was well beyond my range, the only other disappointing aspect of that fabulous weekend was that the hotel was out of hot water by the time we returned.  I think there were about 9,000 runners but I don't know that for sure.  I do know that there were many collegiate cross country teams who participated, making for a lot of quality depth.  

 

   I did not realize you (Bob) had run until now although looking back you had mentioned that a few times.  Clearly you were right ahead of me (207 to 215) and since my pace was a rather disappointing 6:16/mile and yours slightly faster, it was still pretty good considering the exceptional terrain.  Congratulations!  It was so interesting to read those names because I either knew or knew of almost all of the top 50 finishers, a who's who of distance running in the 1970s.  In addition, I knew plenty of the others, some who were my contemporaries, some who were older, and some who gained greater recognition once they got older.  Many of them were from Ohio and many from Dayton, a real hotbed of running at that time.  There were lots of high school guys who later went on to great heights later in life.  

   Thanks for sending this because it brought back so many memories of a great event, one which we shared.

   Bill 

From Bruce:

Bill,

Henry Kupzcyk lived in Gainesville around 1990, when his son was running at Santa Fe CC. He was a big talker. Son not as talented as dad, but talked like he was!

. 

Bruce

 

Reply from Bob:

I think the 1974 race was a special event for Charleston. As I recall, Charleston and  Angola, Indiana were in a form of competition to see who would be awarded the status as the home for a running Hall of Fame. 

A local dentist Dr. Cohen, as Bill said, was a big proponent for Charleston. If I am correct, in 1974 there was free entry, free lodging, and ceremonies the night before and after the race. I believe Ryun, Dellinger and other notables were invited.  This was done to attract an impressive showing and gain the Hall of Fame nod that they were seeking. The size of the entrant field was extremely impressive, both in quantity and quality, compared to other races during that era. 

As Bill also mentioned, the weather was relatively comfortable for that time of the year. However, with the ‘hill’ and distance, I knew that the conditions could be much more challenging with more heat and humidity. I ran in the infamous 1971 Reader, WV race where two individuals died. I will send an article shortly about that occurrence. 

I considered myself quite lucky. I was leading midway in the Reader  race when I went down due to the weather. Fortunately, I was out on the course where I awoke and the trailing truck brought me in. The two individuals who perished were near the finish when they collapsed. The attending physician saw them shaking so they were wrapped in blankets. Their core temperatures spiked and they died. 

I figured I had enough of WV distance races around Labor Day weekend so I resolved to never return. 

Bob

From Bill:

I never heard of any competition between Charleston and Angola for the T&F Hall of Fame, but that is possible.  I do know that we got two nights in a hotel, 5 meals, 1 t-shirt, 1 black jacket, 1 tote bag, and free entries.  All of that drew quite a crowd and I considered it the best road race I had been to.  They did host the induction ceremony for the HOF which Steve, Phil, I and others attended.  Dr. Cohen spearheaded this effort but eventually, when enthusiasm waned, he allowed the HOF to go to Indy or at least that is what I remember.

   Craig Whitmore was the organizer of the Reader, WV road race which Bob alluded to because he spoke to me once or twice about the heat and what he would have done differently in later years.  The Charleston Road Race began early, at 8:00 or earlier.

from Bruce: 

Amazing field that Charleston assembled for a hilly, hot 15 miler. I dnr as I think had my first metatarsal stress fracture that year. 

Bruce

From George:   Bruce, Bill, Bob,

I'm tempted to print out that finish list and highlight every runner I recognize in there.   Amazing,  some good ones way back having a bad day perhaps.

I ran there in 1976 on my way to Ball State to begin grad school.  Went down from Dayton with some guy from Eaton Oh who never stopped talking the whole way and back.  By then the local townsfolk were hosting out of town runners and we stayed free at someone's house.   It was not too hot,  and I had a marathon or two under my belt by then.    Shorter was supposed to be there but no one saw him until about 10 seconds before the gun went off and he came onto the street and got into the front row.  Everyone was amazed at his new Nikes as he had been wearing those Tiger Jayhawks for several years.  It was that new road race shoe that was orange and green.  They became popular after that. 

Rick Lower clarifies my misstatement on the shoes Frank was wearing:

George-

Merry Xmas!

Frank must have been wearing the new Nike Sting- flashy, but I didn’t think as good as its predecessor, the Nike Boston.

I thought Shorter preferred to run in the Tiger Ohbori( the more elite version of the Jayhawk that us mortals ran in). In 1976, prior to Montreal, he signed with Nike, but we never were able to match his Tigers, and he ended up competing in the yellow Ohboris.

George continues:

 The hill you mention was a four lane divided interstate that went straight up the mountain.  Took the wind out of a few sails.   It was also my first time seeing Bob Hall the wheelchair racer.  I was well ahead of him going up the mountain but not coming down.  The downhill was a winding two lane tight road as I recall and he came flying by me in a turn leaning laterally on two wheels zipping in and out of traffic.   I finished 93rd in 1:26.43 according to my logbook. In the '74 race it would have placed me about 40th just behind Aaron Folsom of the Striders and just ahead of Gary Fanelli.   But conditions may have been  a lot different or the course not quite the same.  Who knows?

When I look at those results I think that someone's wife or girlfriend  had to type them all out by hand,  Place, Name, Age, Club, Time.   They probably said 'Never ever again'. 

From Bob

 The thing that stuck out to me as I read the finish list was the number of people who made quite a contribution to our sport .

here is the link to the finishers in at Charleston in 1974

Charleston 1974 Finishers  link  when it comes up you can enlarge it by pressing on 'shift key' and scrolling with mouse.

                                     

Note below o\Chris Fox age 16  199th followed by

Bob and Bill 207th and 215th

From Chris Fox:

Thank you Bruce.   I have not thought about the Charleston Distance Run in a long time.   I was 15 at the time(it lists me as 16).  We drove down from Martinsburg and had a blast.   

We did the hall of fame induction ceremony on a vast lawn on Kanawha Blvd.  Jim Thorpe, among others, was inducted that day.  

I got to meet my hero at that time, Jim Ryun, and also got to have lunch with Nick Rose and Tony Staynings.   For me, a huge fan, it was like being in disney world.  

The race, 199th, was hard.  

That spring I ran the hall of fame track classic at Laidley field.   I was second.  

I believe Shorter beat up on Rogers in the  feature 2 mile.   

For a moment, Charleston was the center of the universe.   

I hope you are doing well.  I think of you all the time.   You were a guy who impacted me early.   Running and music.  

Take care

Chris

Now concerning that Reader, WV race also 15 miles  in 1961 where two runners died:

I am transcribing the article from The Ohio Runner September, 1990 issue.

                                                    Labor Day 1961

                              The Day Two Runners Fell Victim to the Sun

                                           by Mike Whiteford

                             Charleston, WV  Sunday Gazette-Mail

In 1961, the Running Boom still lay more than a decade away.  Runners would not take to the streets and trails in appreciable numbers until American Frank Shorter won the 1972 Olympic Marathon and the medical community began publicizing the benefits of cardiovascular exercise.

Nevertheless, about 30 runners gathered along a country road in West Virginia at 10 a.m. on Labor Day 1961, poised t begin a 15 mile race in the town of Reader, Wetzel County.  Its organizers called it the Reader Marathon, but it wasn't really a marathon of course.  In those days, any race of more than a few miles qualified as a marathon.

Its organizers also hold the Reader Marathon's distinction as one of the few distance races in the country of that era.  Others were the Boston Marathon, Yonkers (N.Y.) Marathon, Berwick  (Pa.) Road Race and perhaps a few more.  (Culver City Marathon ed.).  It seemed quite improbable that nearly 60 years ago a distance race would originate n a West Virginia community of 500 people.

The inaugural Reader Marathon had been fun in 1959 with a field of about half a dozen.  It had been the idea of Her Rogers, a Wetzel County runner who at that the time competed for the West Virginia University track and cross country teams.  He briefly held the WVU record by running the mile in 4:20 and later gained a bit of notoriety as a lawyer-politician.

The runners who toed the starting line on that Labor Day morning were well-conditioned young men, most of whom had competed in college track and cross country, and were from out of state.  The official starter that day was Stan Romanoski, the longtime WVU track and cross country coach.

Spectators gathered at the starting line, too, apparently attracted by the curiosity of runners subjecting themselves to such a grueling competition.  A picnic for the runners and townspeople was planned for later in the day.

But those were the rudimentary days of distance running in West Virginia.  It was a time when race organizers did not know that safeguards needed to be taken, safeguards that could literally mean the difference between life and death.

And so the difference  life and death was spelled out on that day in 1961.  Running without water stops and sprays that are standard in modern races, the runners risked the danger of heatstroke, a condition that causes the body temperature to rise to life-threatening levels.

They ran for nearly two hours in midday temperatures that soared into the 90's on a course that included as Rogers recalls, 'one enormous hill.'  It was perhaps not surprising that two runners -- Barry Van Emburg of Alquippa, Pa., and Dennis Stoner, of Youngstown--suffered heat stroke late in the race, virtually unconscious but instintctively plodding ahead, mumbling incoherently.  When Stoner wandered about 100 yards of the course, Rogers followed him and saw an ashen face, glazed eyes rolled back.  Stoner , Rogers recalled, babbled something about water.  Spectators summoned an ambulance.

Meanwhile, as Van Emburg , a WVU sophomore, moved uneasily toward the finish line, he collapsed several times, but each time struggled to his feet and continued.  Shortly thereafter, both Stoner and Van Emburg were taken toa makeshift hospital at the Reader High School gymnasium and later were transferred to New Martinsville.

On occasion, runners still die in road races--two of the 4200 entrants in the 1990 Pittsburgh Marathon died--but the cause almost invariably is congenital heart problems.  The simple safeguard of providing water stations has virtually eliminated heatstroke in sanctioned races.  In 17 years of the Charleston Distance Run, there has not been a fatality.

Not long after the tragedy of 1961, friends of Van Emburg and Stoner, as well as the people of Wetzel County, erected a black granite marker to commemorate the ill-fated Reader Marathon.  It stnds along a highway near the course and lists the names of the two runners.  It also bears an inscription that is eternally appropriate.  It reads:  "Let us run with patience."

Ed. Note   The black granite marker was moved recently to make way for a new business in Reader.  A new location for it in the area has not been found.   Story originally ran in the Charleston, WVa Sunday Gazette-Mail on May 20, 1990.

                                                   also in the Ohio Runner Article

                                                           A Letter of Rebuttal

The record should be set straight with regard to the two deths that occurred during the Reader Marathon in 1961.  The medical personnel confused heat stroke with heat prostration and wrapped the two runners in blankets rather than packing them with ice.  I know whereof I speak because I was a witness to these events.

The heat and the humidity , the water (or lack of it) on the course, all contributed to the runners conditions, but it was basic and elemental medical malpractice that killed them.

The prosecuting attorney of Wetzel County, T. Jackson Hawkins, who was present on race day, told me several years later that it was such 'a glaring error' that he seriously considered indicting the attending physician for negligent homicide.  The parents of one of the deceased runners gave serious consideration to bringing a law suit but finally abandoned the idea for logistical reasons. 

The physician involved has been dead for several years and the other medical people involved are long-retired.  The purpose of this letter is not to ascribe guilt or blame to any person, but simply to note the 'acts of God' frequently are covered with human fingerprints.

Sincerely,

J.S. Rogers, M.D.

New Martinsville, W. Va.

Bill responded:

Extremely interesting.  I always wondered exactly what role Craig Whitmore played in this race since his name wasn't mentioned in the article.  He told me he was the meet organizer but maybe he was just an assistant since that job was attributed to Herb Rogers.  I was also part of a race about 1970 on the Union Road course in Monroe, Ohio on an equally hot day with a 2:00PM starting time.  It was quite an ordeal so one of the runners fell victim to the heat with similar symptoms and eventuall died on the flor of Steve Price's mothers living room just outside of Monroe.  A doctor there hesitated to treat him since he didn't was to encounter a lawsuit but there is a Good Samaritan law which exonerates a person in advance for taking such action.  I'm quite sure the runner would have died anyway.

George responded:

I've been trying to find an account of that incident at Steve' mom's house but unsuccessful so far.

Here's what Wikipedia says about the Charleston 15:

The Charleston Distance Run is a 15-mile (24 km) road running event held annually in Charleston, West Virginia. The race starts in front of the West Virginia State Capitol on the Kanawha Boulevard. The course starts on the flats of the Boulevard before going across the South Side Bridge and up Corridor G, a hill named Capital Hill Punishment for its nearly 2-mile (3 km) uphill length. The course winds through Charleston's South Hills for 3 miles (5 km) before crossing back over the South Side Bridge. The final 7 miles (11 km) are flat; runners go past the West Virginia State Capitol, along the Kanawha River, before finishing at Laidley Field.

History

The race was started in 1973 by Don Cohen, an eye doctor in Charleston. Cohen wanted to create a race that coincided with the annual Sternwheel Regatta, so he teamed up with city leaders and police to find a route.

The race ended up being 15 miles (24 km) quite by accident, as Cohen's main focus was to orientate the race around some of Charleston's most famous landmarks, such as the State Capitol, the Kanawha riverbank, the East End, West Side, and South Hills. Though the Sternwheel Regatta retired in 2008, the Distance Run continues as an independent event. To this day, it is America's only 15-mile distance run.

And finally before closing here is  a movie revue and social commentary from the Geezer Patrol

                             "A Complete Unknown"    

A film about Bob Dylan

Bruce wrote:  Saw the above titled movie today, about Bob Dylan's early years in NYC.

Would Highly recommend it.  Woody Guthrie and Pete Seeger characters have strong influence.  Paints Dylan in a very positive light, as the young obsessed songwriter.

Bill wrote:   

We hope to see this movie for so many reasons but already saw "Bonhoeffer," possibly the most powerful movie I have ever seen.

George responded:   

Probably won't see those films up here on Vancouver Island.  Only one cinema in our town and it fills the place with all that superhero and anime rubbish.   Good films rarely shown here.

George , Bill,

Had not heard of Bonhoeffer, but certainly looks compelling (on a whole different level). Refuse to go watch any animation/action bullshit. Had to sit through 30:00 of ads and previews before Bob. Other big complaint is films/tv shot at night or dark rooms with no lights. Can’t see shit.

Bruce

George wrote: 

So how do you find your way into the cinema if you arrive late if you can't see in the dark?   Another thing I hate is buying a ticket with a reserved seat. They are all reserved now.   What do you do if you have to sit next to a man or woman who is wearing size 4xxxx sized clothing and their belly flops into your lap or there is a woman with a huge hat in front of you or you find yourself next to your old girlfriend who dumped in your junior year just before the prom?  I think I've been to one film since just before Covid era.  

Bill comes back with a hard slider down and away:

 I am laughing at you guys who sound like grumpy old men, a lot like me.  If we would live to be 125 we would really have a lot to complain about.

Bill commented:

On a more positive note I spent several UC football seasons in bench seating sitting next to Terry Nelson, a former 6' 8" player who had put on some weight so I spent the whole season listing to the south toward Kathy.

To our enduring and loyal readers who have made it this far,  

This has been quite long already.  We will cover the 1976 Charleston 15 Mile Run in the next issue as well as a few of Bob Roncker's Running Spotlight issues from the old days.

Adios,

George