Once Upon a Time in the Vest

Wednesday, May 11, 2022

V 12 N. 34 When is Too Much, Too Much?

 Lately I've been having online conversations with old running friends, sometimes with myself, occasionally God forbid on Facebook.  The theme has generally been, what is too much training? That dilemma has always been a part of coaching oneself and others.  In the distant past I think we can all agree that in the late 50's and 60's many of us  did way too much.  Maybe not on any one day, but definitely from day to day, we really didn't take much rest.  The philosophy was often, "If I'm going to beat somebody, I've gotta out train him."  I remember when a week of training meant a day of 440's, a day of 880's, a day of 1320's and a day of 220's, .  The more the better, the faster even better.   Friday we travelled, Saturday we raced (sometimes two and three races at two-day meets) and came home, and Sunday we rested or did a 4 mile jog.     I also remember by the end of my third year of college, I was a total burnout and it took almost 9 years to get over it.  In my early racing years I  did very little distance training.  It was too hard and our shoes were shit, to quote Bill Bowerman.    An 8 mile run in the summer was tops.  Hardly anything like that once back in school in September.  

Now in my/our 'golden' era, ( some don't want to use the terms 'elderly, old" or other condescending terms for those humans over 70),  and I guess I should respect that,  I'm wondering how we know when enough is enough in our  plodding over tracks and trails.  Some have had too many joint replacements, injuries, or illnesses to be concerned anymore.  But for the fortunate few, the question still remains.

I mentioned in a letter recently to a few guys that I ran a couple of mile time trials lately after getting over the Omicron variant which had left me with blood clots in one leg and both lungs.  Got placed on blood thinners and told to take it easy.  What's easy?  Hard to define.  

You will shortly see some responses from several former competitive runners and coaches.  And additionally I will also bring up the topic of young children running marathons (too much too soon?) as a six year old recently ran a marathon in Cincinnati and Children's Services came knocking on the door.   

Okay so here's the bit on what's enough for a senior runner.

May 9

Since getting Omicron in February and picking up; blood clots in right leg and both lungs, I've been trying to come back slowly to exercising without blowing a gasket.  No way really of telling what would be too much.  But recovery between exercise bouts has been slow, even from long walks.   Anyway last week I did virtually nothing for four days travelling up to Alert Bay on Cormorant Island off the northeast coast of Vancouver Island. 

When I got back I went for a walk and felt incredibly strong in the legs compared to how I had been feeling for the last three months.   So I decided to run a mile yesterday on a flat trail I had run some previous 'time trials' on.   Both of those efforts had been slooow.  12 min.  then 10:25 about a week ago.  Yesterday I hit 9:35, so maybe it was  insufficient rest that was the problem.  Isn't that what I've been telling myself for years about my training as a 19 and 20 year  and 30 year old?    Last summer at the 'peak' of my running I had an 8:55 on a similar course.  I plan to take some more time off and do this again.  It wasn't easy, but it was enjoyable.  The trail is straight and flat between two roads that are a mile apart, following an old logging railway path.  I'm still intimidated getting on a track to run time trials.  Through a beautiful green forest is a lot more relaxing.    George


From Roy Mason (knee replacement has kept him off the trails and roads but he is still a workout maniac)  

Good to hear you are on the mend.  I have experienced the same thing in my workouts.  As I have been able to maintain intensity through age 81, I thought there was no reason I couldn't continue hard workouts into my nineties.  In the last year, reality hit.  Could still do tough weightroom workouts (24 stations, half at max, half concentration, depending on the day) and get the occasional PR at one of the flat out stations, but the price was feeling like shit for the next 2-3 days.  Started taking days off and immediately felt better.  My workout frequency dropped from 91% in 2020 to 82% in '21 to 68% this year and I feel better although there are some guilt pangs over missing a day.  I have three workouts - the big boy flat out weightroom routine, 30 minutes of fairly intense work on the exercise bike and a lighter routine with dumbbells at home.  They are done with equal frequency. I have a Mr. Roger's Neighborhood tee shirt, probably 40 years old, that I wear in the weight room.  Twice I have been asked.  Mr. Rogers?  Who's that?  Roy


from Bill Schnier former U. of Cincinnati head coach (30+ years)  and competitive runner

   Thanks for the update.  The fact that you are timing yourself indicates a trend toward too much.  However, better times continue to be motivating, even though we compare ourselves against our worst self.  Sounds as if you are still keeping it at the right tempo.  Bill


from Bruce Kritzler former coach U of Louisiana Monroe and U North Carolina Wilmington and long time Master's runner.

good run (time trial) George. 

i haven’t been on the track yet this year. built up to 16x100 barefoot once or twice/week. had minor skin surgery two weeks ago on my back. surprised the surgeons requesting them to remove some splinters from my feet.  My wife couldn't dig them out.  Bruce


From John Perry (former member of Oklahoma State WR 4x880 team and a 1:46 man and 4:04 miler)

George 

Don’t ever say the “elderly” word again! I still think I’m young and tell myself that everyday when I get up!  We’re just not as fast! 

In addition, if you are not planning on competing again, throw the watch away! I have no idea what my time is for my one mile jog and the only reason I know my 8x100m (19-21 sec) times is that my training partner carries a watch. He also pulls muscles trying to run too fast (16-17),  usually a hamstring, when I’m not there to keep him under control! He’s 75! 

Intervals are the way to go! If you can run 6 minute mile pace for 100 M just striding along, you feel like a runner! My goal is to get the “float”, not go out and kill myself training for a sub 3:00 800m. It’s possible, but I’d rather play golf, fish and drink wine! 

John Perry 


from Sylvia Gleason (ER doctor, ultra runner, competitive cyclist, medical missionary in war zones like the Congo)

I have been using my mountain bike a lot more. The whole gravel riding thing has taken off in popularity, and I have come to appreciate why.  Almost no traffic on gravel , dirt and one lane back roads and some of the best scenery you could wish for. I like the muti-day bike trips I have done over the last few years, one of my favorite remains  " Heart of Appalachia: which took us on gravel and forest service road through western Virginia and parts of Tennessee. 

and finally from Bill Blewett in Maryland.   Bill was an incredible 'walk on' at Oklahoma 4:02 mile and sub 14:00  3 mile.   Won the Peach Tree Road Race back in the 70's.   He's now on a lifetime regimen of  chemo every three weeks for a form of leukemia.  

George, that's an interesting perspective on work-rest balance for us elderly (I don't like that adjective) runners.  Of course, Billy Mills took a year and a half off after graduating from Kansas, and when he began to run again, he found himself so surprisingly strong that he went on to win gold in Tokyo a year into his comeback.  I suspect he overtrained in his college days under Bill Easton and the long hiatus allowed his body to heal the cumulative damage.
I feel that at age 74, I am getting stronger as my therapy continues, even though I cannot yet get back to jogging.  My workouts are 1/2 to 1 mile a day of walking, mostly on the treadmill, 2.5 mph, and I find that can now go down stairs faster, that I am no longer stiff and sluggish when I get up from sitting for an hour in front of the computer.  I am starting to do pushups again, and they are getting easier each week.  There is hope.


George again:   So I'm inclined to believe the harder we work, the more rest we need.  Work easy, rest easy,  work hard, rest a longer time.   Experiment and find what works for you.  I like John Perry's running repeat 100 meters.  You can do it at a pretty good clip and back off before you get tired.  Check what you did for the workout  16 x 100 and you've got a pretty good mile under your belt.  You raised you heart rate, let it come down and pushed it up again.    Talking to Bob Schul once (very Igloi trained) he said nothing over 400 meters ever did him any good for running 5,000 meters.   Also when I was a grad student at the Human Performance Lab at Ball State,  Dave Costill the very well known director of the lab had an axiom of 20 minutes, three times a week at about 70% of max heart rate was enough to keep an adult fit.  Dave, if you read this, please correct me on this if I've erred.  

I would love to hear readers' thoughts on this and will add them to the article.

Now, go get a beer and get ready for Part Twol


Okay, so you're on your second beer.

Yesterday  I shot my mouth off on FB on a totally different subject and scrolled down and noted that some folks were "shocked, Louie, shocked" to quote Adolph Menjou in "Casablanca" that a six year old had run a marathon in Cincinnati,  and his father had given him some Pringles to continue when the child started to cry.   Apparently Children's Services made a house call when the story got out. I doubt that the child was removed from the care of the parents.  It was Kentucky.    It usually takes a lot more like the parents are whacked out druggies and the child has crawled out the second floor window and is on the roof or riding his trike down the Interstate against the flow of traffic, or unfortunately a lot worse.  I was curious as to whether there were records for young kids running marathons.

I found that 9 year old Wesley Paul on January 25, 1969 ran a 2:56:57 marathon in Huntsville, AL.  Wesley lived in Overland Park, KS, so Mom and Dad were definitely into this travelling that far for a race.  Also at age 7 Wesley had run a 4hr 4 min. marathon.  Mom and Dad were working on their PhD.'s in math.

So what is your feeling about kids running marathons?   Doing a bit of internet trolling I found that approximately 75 kids  8-13 years old had run in the NYC Marathon before the organizers raised the age limit first to 16 and now to 18.  Age of consent? (age of consent in Alabama 12, 13 in Tennessee). 

Should it be considered abuse if you train your kid to run a marathon if he or she is 6 years old?  I guess it depends on what the child likes to do.  Would it be better if he sat in front of a video screen all day or as I've often seen in coffee shops, some neglectful parents on their cell phones while a toddler is desperately trying to get their attention from its stroller?   There's a vague line somewhere and I think each case of a child running a marathon or walking a tight rope has to be individually evaluated.  

Wesley Paul in NYC

Wesley Paul, mentioned earlier, continued running until age 15 when he was hit by a car and broke a knee cap.  Now he's a lawyer, jogs some and is into rowing.  He also doesn't regret a day of his childhood marathoning according to another article about him by Debra Cassens Weiss in the American Bar Association Journal, Oct. 25, 2009.   link:  https://www.abajournal.com/news/article/these_lawyers_ran_the_nyc_marathon_at_the_ages_of_8_and_9

For the girls,  nine year old Julie Mullin ran a 2 hr 58:01 on August 30, 1966 at Seaside Oregon.  I could not find what has become of Julie.  I somehow doubt that she is living under a bridge.

Both these kids did these times, many years ago.  If kids were still doing marathons I'm sure the records would be somewhat lower, so the interest seems to have waned.   We as parents all like to see our kids succeed.  That's why we have age group records.  The question is where to draw the limits.  I doubt now that marathon camps for toddlers would be very profitable.  There are other ways to help your child shine.  I have witnessed this with my own eyes at dance studios.  We make young girls stand on the points of their toes and look 'beautiful' for doting mothers, fathers, and grandparents.  They practice for hours, some 5-6 days a week.  They dream of being prima ballerinas, and when they reach puberty, many are shown the door because nature has been unkind to their figures and they cannot walk through that template that gets a woman into a famous ballet school.  Is that any less arrogant than a parent encouraging a child to run a marathon?  But we seldom if ever ask this question  about the arts.  

It is sometimes preached at sports banquets that sport prepares you for life.  The highs and lows and the need to change often come the way of the aspiring athlete.  But the confidence to persevere in hard times is also one of the great lessons of sport even when it sometimes robs us of our childhood .  In the Ukraine today, thousands of people are being tested in the most insidious of ways.   I truly believe that the athletes and dancers have the best chances of survival.

 For more on thesubject, see this article by Bob Anderson on Mary Etta Boitano who ran a marathon at age 4 and the Dipsea before she was 10.   

   This has to be your longest post ever.  Could it be because you cannot train as usual?  The 6-year old Cincinnati marathoner has been big news with plenty of supporters or detractors on both sides.  When he started crying was when others started yelling at his parents.  I think it came down to parental pushing and a desire to please your parents.  Nevertheless, running a marathon at age 6 is quite an accomplishment and I hope that continues to motivate the child as he grows older.
   The comments from your "elderly" runners went from A to Z so maybe the same principles for training continue when you age.  We are all still exercising in some way or another.
Bill Schnier

Yep, sometimes the only things we have left to exercise are our 'rights'.  George

George, 

8x100m is perfect! 16 is overtraining! 1 mile jog, stretching and very slow walk between 100’s gets your heart rate up to 150+ and down to 90-100 for over 30 continuous minutes. You even get a distance running “high” without doing a 5 miler and killing your legs! 

My only competition is with myself when I run my annual birthday striders in July! I feel faster every year but I guess I will start timing to validate and document that. 

Take care,

John Perry

A Bier (or two), a cold soak and sleep.   
by Richard Mach
Frequently, the aftermath of  over-training back in the day was retarded, slow recovery and little return of energy along with an aftermath of soreness and stiffness.  At a running camp a friend, Jim Carter, and I sponsored outside of Frankfort MI in the late 70s to early 80s, Herb Lindsey from Reed City, MI and Michigan State University, then the best man on the roads in the world just before the advent of the Kenyans, suggested after an extensive training session to bring a beer with you while soaking in a later spring, early summer lake.   

The first time I tried it was after a 22 mile run on the dusty hot back dirt roads in SE Michigan and was blitzed by a combination of both heat stress and dehydration because back in the day no one carried water on them.  And I foolishly went out somewhat dehydrated. Bringing  H2O back then would have  anathema to the Terminal Macho Spirit that then pervaded the serious running community.  But, I lived on a lake, if was late spring, cold water in abundance right out the back door; and a good German beer in the fridge.  Soaked up to my neck.  Wasn't for the faint hearted, but actually, the bier seemed, somehow, to ease the entry in such waters.   And you have been living in a world of discomfort and so this isn't much different.

What is happening internally is the cold is gradually penetrating the sore muscles and the inflamed area around the joint centers and effectively shrinking and sedating them.   Ice baths today are de riguer in the NFL and other sports where the body takes a lot of punishment.  Meanwhile, the beer you have been  drinking is doing more than dulling your senses enough to try such a challenging venture.  The alcohol the beer carries is but a single chemical step from being fully metabolizable energy, Glucose, for the body.  That beer or two is shunting energy into fatigue and exhausted muscle including the heart muscle.   It is very ready energy and the body in its energy deficit right then is anxious to partake of it in refurbishing its energy stories.  

The beer, again, makes it easier to enter the water.  This can also be done anytime in your own bathtub.  The temperature of the water?   Something you are slightly out of your comfort zone.  In the tub, you can start with warmish water.  And gradually once in the tub cool it down with gradually accruing cold water.   Until you hear your body protesting, saying no, that is your temperature.  For the day.  Stay in there until you have a strong, but not overpowering urge to get out.   By that time you should be cold through and through.  And the beer has done its job.   

Then it is time to rest and stay horizontal instead of trying to plough through the rest of your day immediately; acknowledging the body has been challenged, has given back value to you and now in its present state is in need of rest.  Honor it with the rest it needs.  

This simple formula shared with me back a half a lifetime ago has served me every time -- without fail. Richard.

editor's note.   Local First Nations culture in Pacific Northwest practices this cold water immersion as a cleansing ceremony but without beer.  They also do the sweat lodges. 

Russ Ebbets writes about the child running question.

 George - I wrote the endurance curriculum for the Youth Level 2 of USATF's Coaching Ed back in 2012...it was one the most difficult things I ever did...I researched all the great coaches and to a man they had nothing to say about children running...on one slide in the presentation I had a split-screen with the title "American Record holders"...on the right side of the screen were all the American record-holders for distances from the mile to the marathon...names you would know littered the list like Webb, Lagat, Bob Kennedy, etc....there were 120 coaches in the clinic...I asked them who were all the athletes on the right side of the slide?...no one could identify even one of the names ...they were the American record-holders in all the same events for the 10-year-old age category...they never did anything after that...when I was prepping the lecture the first "record holder" in the JO's that had an adult career was Tom Hunt from Arizona as a 16-year-old.

Below is the link to Budhai Singh, the Indian child who set all the youth running records...there have been several movies done on him you can find on Netflix...I forced myself to watch them...they will make you sick to your stomach...I realize India has a cultural fascination of the "biggest, longest, best" with their own version of the Guinness Book of World Records (Limca Book of Records) but there gets to be a point where these things lose sense (i.e. world's longest fingernails, etc.)...articles attached are my thoughts on children running and my solution (Destination Runs) how I succeeded in transitioning the untrained to runners pretty quickly and successfully...stay well...Russ


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V 14 N. 71 Dallas Long R.I.P. 1940-2024

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